Hi everyone !
I decided to join the group in sharing my 6 MAN files this week. I have about 193G of them and I checked them with MD5SUM. I noticed that I already had some of the rare EGTB from the days I downloaded from Hyatt's site all the 42p that was there.
So far no big deal. The reason why I post here is my dissatisfaction with the persistent leeching that is done by a few of the swarm. I really hate leechers, so the moment I spot them I take the file in question off-line. I am really sorry for the people that DO share and want those files. You do have my sincere apology. Taking off-line these files is extra work for me, but since there is no way to ban these leechers I don't see I have a choice. It's just a matter of principle to me. Please don't expect me to argue about this.
Edit : nobody seems to give a damn, and since my upload limit of 75 is not doing significantly better than 11Kb/s I decided to stick with the latter until my global ratio has dropped to 1:1.
S.
Joining the program
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jshriver
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Re: Joining the program
Sciolto wrote:Hi everyone !
I decided to join the group in sharing my 6 MAN files this week. I have about 193G of them and I checked them with MD5SUM. I noticed that I already had some of the rare EGTB from the days I downloaded from Hyatt's site all the 42p that was there.
So far no big deal. The reason why I post here is my dissatisfaction with the persistent leeching that is done by a few of the swarm. I really hate leechers, so the moment I spot them I take the file in question off-line. I am really sorry for the people that DO share and want those files. You do have my sincere apology. Taking off-line these files is extra work for me, but since there is no way to ban these leechers I don't see I have a choice. It's just a matter of principle to me. Please don't expect me to argue about this.
Edit : nobody seems to give a damn, and since my upload limit of 75 is not doing significantly better than 11Kb/s I decided to stick with the latter until my global ratio has dropped to 1:1.
S.
I and I'm sure many people here, greatly appreciate what you're doing. Once those file get distributed more it'll take to load of you as well.
-Josh
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Kirill Kryukov
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Hi Sciolto, nice to hear from you. I saw that I was downloading something from you in eMule a few days ago, but now I don't see you as a source for any files. Did you remove some bases recently?
BTW, how you are determining if someone is a leecher? I'd like to know this myself too. I found it is very hard to say for sure if someone is a leecher. One way is to check long term statistics of uploads/downloads to/from that guy, but it may happen that you simply already have all the files he is sharing, so you will not download from him, yet he may be sharing alright.
I don't think there's an easy solution to the leeching problem, so I now don't do anything about it. I'm sharing with "Kirr" and "Kirr-2" nodes by the way.
BTW, how you are determining if someone is a leecher? I'd like to know this myself too. I found it is very hard to say for sure if someone is a leecher. One way is to check long term statistics of uploads/downloads to/from that guy, but it may happen that you simply already have all the files he is sharing, so you will not download from him, yet he may be sharing alright.
I don't think there's an easy solution to the leeching problem, so I now don't do anything about it. I'm sharing with "Kirr" and "Kirr-2" nodes by the way.
KCEC | EGTB Online | 3x3 Chess | 3x4 Chess | 4x4 Chess | Longest Checkmates | EGTB Test Suite | Opening Sampler | EGTB Bounty | NULP
Hello Kirill,
I think you are right that it is not practical to try and "proof" that someone is leeching. It is possible that they are not leeching, but what will you think when you see someone that is downloading the very same file as you yet his total upload quota to you stays zero all the time. The chance he has not received one single chunk from someone else that you don't have is very very small. Anyway, the fact that eMule mods exist is not really a good sign, is it ? I use one that tries to combat leechers by assigning penalties to people that have not uploaded to my client. Maybe everyone should do the same
I decided to stop worrying too. In a way your post made a lot of sense to me. Thanks for the advice
About the missing tables: yes I removed quite a lot of them. I will restore them later tonight and allow more upload bandwidth by stopping competing uploads from torrent sites. I will be away from home the next two days, so hopefully the connection stays stable.
Regards, S.
I think you are right that it is not practical to try and "proof" that someone is leeching. It is possible that they are not leeching, but what will you think when you see someone that is downloading the very same file as you yet his total upload quota to you stays zero all the time. The chance he has not received one single chunk from someone else that you don't have is very very small. Anyway, the fact that eMule mods exist is not really a good sign, is it ? I use one that tries to combat leechers by assigning penalties to people that have not uploaded to my client. Maybe everyone should do the same
I decided to stop worrying too. In a way your post made a lot of sense to me. Thanks for the advice
About the missing tables: yes I removed quite a lot of them. I will restore them later tonight and allow more upload bandwidth by stopping competing uploads from torrent sites. I will be away from home the next two days, so hopefully the connection stays stable.
Regards, S.
Hi!
I think that it is a very good thing, that you decided to stop worring about leechers.
By your definition, almost all clients downloading from me would be leechers, as I had most of the TB's already.
Another thing is that it would be impossible for someone who does not have any TB's to begin with to be anything but a leecher.
Lastly, but most importantly, this project is not about you, me, or anybody in particular getting something useful downloaded all the time, but to make all the tablebases available to anyone, at anytime, forever. (At least that was my motivation)
Once again, thanks to everyone participating in this project, whether their contribution is big or small.
I think that it is a very good thing, that you decided to stop worring about leechers.
By your definition, almost all clients downloading from me would be leechers, as I had most of the TB's already.
Another thing is that it would be impossible for someone who does not have any TB's to begin with to be anything but a leecher.
Lastly, but most importantly, this project is not about you, me, or anybody in particular getting something useful downloaded all the time, but to make all the tablebases available to anyone, at anytime, forever. (At least that was my motivation)
Once again, thanks to everyone participating in this project, whether their contribution is big or small.
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Kirill Kryukov
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Hi Sciolto! Dan made some excellent points.. Just one additional comment.
This happens here too. I am downloading some file from one peer and see 10 other peers having that file, but my eMule sais "asked for another file" which means I download some other files from those 10 people. It means that the person from whom I am downloading that file will not get any new chunks from me, because all I got is from him.
So it's hard to evaluate by this way... Long term up/down statistics should give more information, but still it is not too reliable. I have 500+ GB currently, so there is little chance that someone who just joined will upload something to me. Someone who just joining will probably try to download most useful/common sets, which I already have, so he will not upload chunks of rare files to me. It means I have no way whatsoever to evaluate if he is sharing anything or not.
Anyway, we better concentrate on our good points, which is that we are slowly moving towards the goal, with more files and more people joining gradually. Also I keep hearing that we will soon get the last files including kppkpp.
Actually this chance is very large, in fact. When someone is joining the program, often he immediately will add many files to download. Say, about 50 files, for example. But only 5 people share the files. So his eMule will connect to each of those people and there is a large possibility that each files is being dowloaded from one peer only. Other people who have that file are uploading something else to him.Sciolto wrote:It is possible that they are not leeching, but what will you think when you see someone that is downloading the very same file as you yet his total upload quota to you stays zero all the time. The chance he has not received one single chunk from someone else that you don't have is very very small.
This happens here too. I am downloading some file from one peer and see 10 other peers having that file, but my eMule sais "asked for another file" which means I download some other files from those 10 people. It means that the person from whom I am downloading that file will not get any new chunks from me, because all I got is from him.
So it's hard to evaluate by this way... Long term up/down statistics should give more information, but still it is not too reliable. I have 500+ GB currently, so there is little chance that someone who just joined will upload something to me. Someone who just joining will probably try to download most useful/common sets, which I already have, so he will not upload chunks of rare files to me. It means I have no way whatsoever to evaluate if he is sharing anything or not.
It's always people who leech, not the programs. Standard eMule can leech just as well as any mod - anyone can play with upload/download settings.Sciolto wrote:Anyway, the fact that eMule mods exist is not really a good sign, is it ?
Anyway, we better concentrate on our good points, which is that we are slowly moving towards the goal, with more files and more people joining gradually. Also I keep hearing that we will soon get the last files including kppkpp.
KCEC | EGTB Online | 3x3 Chess | 3x4 Chess | 4x4 Chess | Longest Checkmates | EGTB Test Suite | Opening Sampler | EGTB Bounty | NULP
kirill, it seems your description is not quite accurate for one single reason: if there is a single source and 100 cilents trying to download it, the single source will make as even a distribution as possible, that is to say, if the file has 20 chunks, each will be uploaded to 5 different clients asking for that file.
in this way, the file gets distributed as evenly as possible, avoiding complete extinction if a source gets clobbered for some reason, and as quickly as possible, since the chunks going in different directions means more sources for the rest, theoretically.
in practice, it is the case that people aren't always online, however this will only disrupt the flow of the model if whoever isn't online at the time is the single complete source for a given file, as then the emules will not see a complete source and not download that file if they see other complete files they have been asked to download. further, since not every internet connection is the same speed or has the same ratio of up to down throughput, as is the case with xDSL vs. cable, the greater number of sources may be offset by the difference in cumulative upload capacity.
this is not to say that leechers cannot be tracked. quite the contrary, they can, and easily, however if it is the case that they are in possession of no files you need, then it shouldn't be a problem, since it is the case with emule that your upload capacity to assigned speed ratio determines your download capacity to maximum speed ratio.
so leechers only become a problem when they have chunks you want and you have chunks they want but the relationship is all one way. there are things you can do about this: setting priorities of files, moving/removing files, etc., and if the case is bad enough, emule will ban clients itself (!), but the balance is that you have to consider that a file may, in fact, be a rare one, so unsharing it may have serious consequences for people you consider as legitimate sharers.
a last point: last i heard, tbs are public domain. as such, not sharing them when you are the only source, or one of only a few sources, is antisocial in itself; easily as antisocial as the leeches that are going to be uploading more than they'll ever download using emule, and perhaps more so.
gambit knows around 1000 clients now, after only a couple of months, sure, and downloading mainly relatively common files, however, there are 3 clients that it just won't talk to because when they had chunks that gambit asked for it gave them around 600M (each) and they gave nothing in return. that's about teh only way you can really tell a file leech using emule. now that they no longer have anything gambit is interested in, they are completely locked out of gambit with no possibility of return, just because they didn't let it download anything it was asking for. this is automatic in emule, but only if you have the default setting of credit system on, so is just another case of not having to worry about leeches.
in this way, the file gets distributed as evenly as possible, avoiding complete extinction if a source gets clobbered for some reason, and as quickly as possible, since the chunks going in different directions means more sources for the rest, theoretically.
in practice, it is the case that people aren't always online, however this will only disrupt the flow of the model if whoever isn't online at the time is the single complete source for a given file, as then the emules will not see a complete source and not download that file if they see other complete files they have been asked to download. further, since not every internet connection is the same speed or has the same ratio of up to down throughput, as is the case with xDSL vs. cable, the greater number of sources may be offset by the difference in cumulative upload capacity.
this is not to say that leechers cannot be tracked. quite the contrary, they can, and easily, however if it is the case that they are in possession of no files you need, then it shouldn't be a problem, since it is the case with emule that your upload capacity to assigned speed ratio determines your download capacity to maximum speed ratio.
so leechers only become a problem when they have chunks you want and you have chunks they want but the relationship is all one way. there are things you can do about this: setting priorities of files, moving/removing files, etc., and if the case is bad enough, emule will ban clients itself (!), but the balance is that you have to consider that a file may, in fact, be a rare one, so unsharing it may have serious consequences for people you consider as legitimate sharers.
a last point: last i heard, tbs are public domain. as such, not sharing them when you are the only source, or one of only a few sources, is antisocial in itself; easily as antisocial as the leeches that are going to be uploading more than they'll ever download using emule, and perhaps more so.
gambit knows around 1000 clients now, after only a couple of months, sure, and downloading mainly relatively common files, however, there are 3 clients that it just won't talk to because when they had chunks that gambit asked for it gave them around 600M (each) and they gave nothing in return. that's about teh only way you can really tell a file leech using emule. now that they no longer have anything gambit is interested in, they are completely locked out of gambit with no possibility of return, just because they didn't let it download anything it was asking for. this is automatic in emule, but only if you have the default setting of credit system on, so is just another case of not having to worry about leeches.
those who can, do
those who can't, teach
those who can't, teach
Hi Gambit,
As far as I know eMule will only ban temporarily for an hour or so when a client is a known leech mod. I have not heard of permanent user bans when it did not upload an available file that was requested. Maybe you know where to find info about this on the net; I have looked but couldn't find it.
Anyway, when I look at known clients and sort them so that the ones that did not upload anything to me are on top, then I see for example a client with a download from me totalling 1,2GB. I guess he is just starting out and does not have anything that I don't have (about 230GB), or he is moving the finished files to other folders, I don't know, there is no way to tell. The penalty that eMule is assigning based on the credit system is only holding him back in my queue, but it is not stopping him.
[edit:] after adding other files to download the user also showed up as one of the uploaders
To end with some more good news : Renze offered me to copy tables onto a HD for which I am very grateful of course. He picked up a 400GB drive this afternoon on his way to his parents In due time I will be able to share some more of the rare tables.
Sciolto
As far as I know eMule will only ban temporarily for an hour or so when a client is a known leech mod. I have not heard of permanent user bans when it did not upload an available file that was requested. Maybe you know where to find info about this on the net; I have looked but couldn't find it.
Anyway, when I look at known clients and sort them so that the ones that did not upload anything to me are on top, then I see for example a client with a download from me totalling 1,2GB. I guess he is just starting out and does not have anything that I don't have (about 230GB), or he is moving the finished files to other folders, I don't know, there is no way to tell. The penalty that eMule is assigning based on the credit system is only holding him back in my queue, but it is not stopping him.
[edit:] after adding other files to download the user also showed up as one of the uploaders
To end with some more good news : Renze offered me to copy tables onto a HD for which I am very grateful of course. He picked up a 400GB drive this afternoon on his way to his parents
In due time I will be able to share some more of the rare tables.Sciolto
With the great help of Renze I was able to more than double my tables. An extra disk with 372GB is online as of tonight.
A general tip for people that want to download a lot of files simultaneously : multiply the number of files by 0,66 and you will have an indication of the disk space needed (in GB) for the temp files (incomplete downloads). You will need this space AND a disk to move the complete files to in case you start the long queues
I will try to keep 70 KB/s uploads as much as possible. Happy sharing !
S.
A general tip for people that want to download a lot of files simultaneously : multiply the number of files by 0,66 and you will have an indication of the disk space needed (in GB) for the temp files (incomplete downloads). You will need this space AND a disk to move the complete files to in case you start the long queues
I will try to keep 70 KB/s uploads as much as possible. Happy sharing !
S.
took a while to wade through the code again (available through sourceforge for any interested) and it seems that recent modifications (read: in the last 3 months) have altered the code i had to behave as scioto describes.... damn, i have to start keeping up again :>
those who can, do
those who can't, teach
those who can't, teach