Stockfish derivative engines and registration problem
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Stockfish derivative engines and registration problem
Hi Gabor Szots,
Some time ago I wanted to register my engine as a derivative of Stockfish for CCRL. You said I may announce my engine at one of the public chess fora. Then a CCRL member might pick it up for testing. I thought this was an easy way to introduce a new engine but I realized it's not possible after contacting another CCRL member (Graham Banks). Graham said: "Looks like copy paste Stockfish with a single commit Remove skipEarlyPruning". CCRL has a policy of letting authors register engines for fair competition upon request. I would like to make such a request on my behalf. I am NOT accusing CCRL of anything and in fact wish it well. However, while it is frustrating, there is no way to tell why my engine is not registered. I should add that I am not a maintainer and only one of Lifish contributors.
Thank you.
Discussion: https://github.com/official-stockfish/S ... sions/5129
MyGithub: https://github.com/WampServer
Engine: https://github.com/EarlyEdition/Lifish-HalfKP
Some time ago I wanted to register my engine as a derivative of Stockfish for CCRL. You said I may announce my engine at one of the public chess fora. Then a CCRL member might pick it up for testing. I thought this was an easy way to introduce a new engine but I realized it's not possible after contacting another CCRL member (Graham Banks). Graham said: "Looks like copy paste Stockfish with a single commit Remove skipEarlyPruning". CCRL has a policy of letting authors register engines for fair competition upon request. I would like to make such a request on my behalf. I am NOT accusing CCRL of anything and in fact wish it well. However, while it is frustrating, there is no way to tell why my engine is not registered. I should add that I am not a maintainer and only one of Lifish contributors.
Thank you.
Discussion: https://github.com/official-stockfish/S ... sions/5129
MyGithub: https://github.com/WampServer
Engine: https://github.com/EarlyEdition/Lifish-HalfKP
Re: Stockfish derivative engines and registration problem
That is not true. There is no registration process and never has been. Authors can tell CCRL and the entire world that they have an engine, that is it.WampServer wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:46 am CCRL has a policy of letting authors register engines for fair competition upon request. I would like to make such a request on my behalf. I am NOT accusing CCRL of anything and in fact wish it well. However, while it is frustrating, there is no way to tell why my engine is not registered. I should add that I am not a maintainer and only one of Lifish contributors.
Thank you.
Individual testers choose what engines they want to run and in what order of priority, and there are several engines that have never been tested -there are just so many it is not possible to run them all.
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Re: Stockfish derivative engines and registration problem
Right... But I asked Graham, "Why can't my engine be registered?" Graham said: "Looks like copy paste Stockfish". Graham's answer must be provable. It is not right to ignore the efforts of others.Individual testers choose what engines they want to run and in what order of priority, and there are several engines that have never been tested -there are just so many it is not possible to run them all.
Unfortunately, my conversation has been locked in the Official_Stockfish.
https://github.com/official-stockfish/S ... sions/5129
I am waiting to hear convincing reasons for not registering my engine here.
- Graham Banks
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Re: Stockfish derivative engines and registration problem
1. We can choose which engines we want to test, just as CEGT and other rating list maintainers can.WampServer wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 1:51 amRight... But I asked Graham, "Why can't my engine be registered?" Graham said: "Looks like copy paste Stockfish". Graham's answer must be provable. It is not right to ignore the efforts of others.Individual testers choose what engines they want to run and in what order of priority, and there are several engines that have never been tested -there are just so many it is not possible to run them all.
Unfortunately, my conversation has been locked in the Official_Stockfish.
https://github.com/official-stockfish/S ... sions/5129
I am waiting to hear convincing reasons for not registering my engine here.
2. In Discord engine programming channels, some top engine authors including a couple involved with Stockfish, have alluded to the fact that your engine is basically Stockfish, but with an originally trained net. Same as in your github discussions.
3. As you've already been told elsewhere, I have been the only CCRL tester to test Shashchess and SugaR, and I gave you my reasons why I chose those two in particular, and why I had no intention of testing any others.
4. I have also told you that if you announce your engine in the Talkchess forum, you'll find a couple of people over there who love to test Stockfish clones/derivatives.
Now with respect, best to just accept all of that,
Graham.
PS - I think it's really great that you've trained an original net. It would be equally great if you could also write your own engine. You would get plenty of help in these Discord engine programming channels.
https://discord.gg/mxwBj57f
https://discord.gg/ktU37yUT
https://discord.gg/deC9vuBV9R
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Re: Stockfish derivative engines and registration problem
My thread was locked in the Official_Stockfish only after 7 hours. Doesn't this prove that they hate competition? They didn't give any logical reason that my engine is just a copy of Stockfish. I would like to know who the top engine authors are including a couple involved with Stockfish.2. In Discord engine programming channels, some top engine authors including a couple involved with Stockfish, have alluded to the fact that your engine is basically Stockfish, but with an originally trained net. Same as in your github discussions.
Code: Select all
# Stockfish, a UCI chess playing engine derived from Glaurung 2.1
A large number of commits does not determine the quality of an engine. A large number of features does not determine the quality of the engine. From my opinion, Lifish is better than ShashChess and should be registered for CCRL. It doesn't matter if you don't want to register my engine for personal reasons but know that there will not be a fair competition.3. As you've already been told elsewhere, I have been the only CCRL tester to test Shashchess and SugaR, and I gave you my reasons why I chose those two in particular, and why I had no intention of testing any others.
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Re: Stockfish derivative engines and registration problem
How else do you explain Stockfish's copyright notice being present in all of your files?WampServer wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 4:29 am Does this comment prove that my engine is copy paste Stockfish?!
- Gabor Szots
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Re: Stockfish derivative engines and registration problem
Yes, this is what I wrote:
"a CCRL member might pick it up for testing"
Which means each member may decide if he tests it or not. I have decided not to test it. I am simply not interested. Others may decide otherwise.
I can understand your frustration but that's how it is.
My stance might change by time. I'm going to follow the development of your engine and may decide to pick it up for testing when I feel like it.
"a CCRL member might pick it up for testing"
Which means each member may decide if he tests it or not. I have decided not to test it. I am simply not interested. Others may decide otherwise.
I can understand your frustration but that's how it is.
My stance might change by time. I'm going to follow the development of your engine and may decide to pick it up for testing when I feel like it.
Re: Stockfish derivative engines and registration problem
There is no registration process. There are no engines "registered" with CCRL.WampServer wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 4:29 am From my opinion, Lifish is better than ShashChess and should be registered for CCRL. It doesn't matter if you don't want to register my engine for personal reasons but know that there will not be a fair competition.
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Re: Stockfish derivative engines and registration problem
My chess engine is derived from Stockfish but not only copy paste! For example, take a look at search.cppMathmagician wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 5:15 am How else do you explain Stockfish's copyright notice being present in all of your files?
https://github.com/EarlyEdition/Lifish- ... search.cpp
It′s so hard to explain what I'm feeling but I guess it′s ok, Cause I'll keep believing.Gabor Szots wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 5:56 am I can understand your frustration but that's how it is.
I've created a chess match between my engine and Stockfish today. Does this convince you to register my engine?Gabor Szots wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 5:56 am I'm going to follow the development of your engine and may decide to pick it up for testing when I feel like it.
Code: Select all
[Event Blitz 5.0min+3.0sec"]
[Date "2024.03.23"]
[White "Stockfish 16"]
[Black "Lifish+HalfKP v1.0"]
[Result "1-0"]
[TimeControl "300+3"]
[ECO "D31"]
1. d4 {0.31/25 6 Both last book move} d5 {0.16/28 37} 2. c4 {0.27/25 4} c6 {
0.10/28 26 (e6)} 3. Nc3 {0.32/25 3 (e3)} Nf6 {0.24/28 14} 4. e3 {0.25/25 3
(cxd5)} e6 {0.14/28 22 (Bf5)} 5. Qc2 {0.26/25 4 (Nf3)} Be7 {0.19/28 56 (Bd6)}
6. b3 {0.32/25 3 (Nf3)} b6 {0.23/29 58 (0-0)} 7. Bb2 {0.32/25 1} O-O {0.26/28
18} 8. Nf3 {0.38/25 5} Bb7 {0.19/28 40 (Nbd7)} 9. Rd1 {0.31/25 6} Na6 {0.20/29
97 (Nbd7)} 10. Be2 {0.48/25 11 (Qb1)} Bd6 {0.21/28 40 (c5)} 11. a3 {0.38/25 6
(0-0)} Qe7 {0.31/28 53 (Rc8)} 12. O-O {0.34/25 4} Rfc8 {0.31/28 58 (Rac8)} 13.
e4 {0.96/25 3 (b4)} Bxa3 {0.00/28 23 (dxe4)} 14. e5 {1.35/25 3 (Bxa3)} Nd7 {
0.00/28 4} 15. Bxa3 {1.32/25 1} Qxa3 {0.48/28 38} 16. Ng5 {1.35/25 3} Nf8 {
0.90/29 60} 17. Bd3 {1.42/25 2} g6 {1.05/28 76} 18. Qd2 {1.38/25 2} Qe7 {
0.86/28 32} 19. cxd5 {1.27/25 3 (f4)} cxd5 {0.35/28 10} 20. Nb5 {1.36/25 2} Rd8
{0.67/28 15} 21. Nd6 {1.26/25 3} Rxd6 {0.43/29 10} 22. exd6 {1.41/25 2} Qxd6 {
0.70/28 13} 23. Bxa6 {1.42/25 4} Bxa6 {0.55/28 13} 24. Rfe1 {1.39/25 5} Bb5 {
0.72/29 24 (Nd7)} 25. Rc1 {1.32/25 2 (h4)} Bd7 {0.86/28 48 (Nd7)} 26. Nf3 {
1.58/25 6} f6 {1.27/29 58} 27. Rc3 {1.56/25 4 (h4)} a5 {1.39/28 52 (Re8)} 28.
g4 {1.70/25 4} g5 {1.22/29 30 (Re8)} 29. h4 {1.74/25 5} Qf4 {2.11/28 22 (h6)}
30. Qxf4 {2.16/25 4} gxf4 {2.30/28 27} 31. g5 {2.21/25 2 (Rc7)} Ra7 {2.47/28
28 (Kg7)} 32. gxf6 {2.79/25 3} Kf7 {2.25/29 13} 33. Rec1 {2.94/25 2 (Ne5+)}
Kxf6 {2.37/31 6} 34. Rc7 {2.50/25 1} Rxc7 {2.54/28 6} 35. Rxc7 {2.50/25 0} Bb5
{2.58/28 7 (a4)} 36. Ne5 {3.11/25 2} Be8 {2.92/28 3} 37. Rc8 {3.16/25 1 (f3)}
Ke7 {2.94/28 2} 38. Rc7+ {3.04/25 1 (Kg2)} Kd6 {2.79/28 5} 39. Rc8 {2.92/25 0}
Ke7 {2.82/28 2} 40. Kg2 {3.09/25 0} Ng6 {3.18/28 3} 41. Nxg6+ {3.10/25 0} Bxg6
{2.86/28 3} 1-0
I think I have to wait forever! or never?
Re: Stockfish derivative engines and registration problem
Given that in CCRL's 18+ year history no engine has ever been registered with CCRL, I'll leave you to draw your own conclusion.
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Re: Stockfish derivative engines and registration problem
If so, How is it possible for an engine(Torch v1) to be registered in less than a month and be among the top 3 chess rankings?
- 1-Stockfish 20230613 64-bit 4CPU
- 2-Torch v1 64-bit 4CPU 3625
- 3-Dragon by Komodo 3.3 64-bit 4CPU
https://github.com/official-stockfish/S ... nt-8872672
Is this fair?
- Gabor Szots
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Re: Stockfish derivative engines and registration problem
I don't understand what you don't understand. There is no registration. Engines are announced or found and we individually decide if we test one or not. Maybe I don't understand what registration means.WampServer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2024 7:35 pm If so, How is it possible for an engine(Torch v1) to be registered in less than a month and be among the top 3 chess rankings?
Re: Stockfish derivative engines and registration problem
Andrew is not CCRL. How many times do we have to tell you that there is no registration process and not a single engine is registered with CCRL?? None, zilch.
There is no further point in continuing this discussion. For the first time in CCRL history, this thread will be locked.
There is no further point in continuing this discussion. For the first time in CCRL history, this thread will be locked.